Topic: when is punishment right?

[tan]

here's the deal....i am racking my brain here trying to figure out if i am being an over protective mother or actually thinking logically
  yes she failed grade 3 but she struggle most of the year...the school went beyond the call of duty to help her catch up....she had after school tutoring where she stayed an extra hour once a week. plus had a special class in the after noon everyday to help with her reading..
     now the teacher did inform me that she has progressed alot but was no sufficient to put up to grade 4...i knew this for a while now and mainly kept reassuring her that alot of students have a hard time once in a while ( cause she did get discouraged)

      NOW the kicker her dad (who has never appeared at school once, spoke to any teachers or attended any of her tutoring meetings) has been punishing her since he found out....revoked her right to have friends over when she visits him on weekends....refuses to buy her new things till she grades next year AND flat out told her that they will be bringing her  1 year old brother to an exibition and not her that she will have to stay with a babysitter
   now i am stuck picking up the peices she really thinks she is not smart...she is constantly crying, she even ran away from school last week..just because she didn't want to be there,  and does not want to return to school...nor to her dads...

     so i am stuck wondering are these punishments just or am i just being a over protective mom or do i have a right to be mad at these punishments

tan
help me figure this one out 

[Shit machine gun]

Tough one.  I think the teachers won't hold you back a grade unless they feel you aren't ready to move on.  I know a lot of people that failed a grade and still ended up in university. 

I don't think punishment is the answer, but maybe forcing some extra learning work on her in the summer would help out.

then again, my kid is 1 1/2 and I got a lot of parenting to learn.

[Ole Dirty]

I wouldn't punish her, I would just look for extra help..maybe something to look into for over the summer...

[trailerchick]

Ya I'm going to say I'm NOT big on the punishment thing here with school.

Reason being in your case that she was given extra help and tutoring and such...which suggests that she's not being lazy or whatever...she's just struggling a bit.

I think you're right on when you say that her Father's actions are causing her to feel stupid or something. And that's not fair and in fact I would argue it may make the situation worse.
She's 8 years old...it's not like she's in grade 10...out partying and stuff neglecting her schoolwork.

And as you said...her Father has not taken an interest in her education which maybe if he had,she might have progressed a little further.

Anyhow....I know with my boy who is 11 now...we noticed a lag in some areas at school in grade 2-3.....especially his printing.He struggled mightily with it. And it got to a point where he would get soo frustrated that he just started giving up. I knew he was a smart boy and so did his teachers. I had him assessed by an education specialist[done through the school}. In the end we discovered he had what's termed a visual output disorder.
They tested everything. It was very revealing. He was assessed in reading and literacy skills at a grade 12 level, and almost everything else at a grade 7-9 level. So basically he's a very intelligent child but he had trouble expressing it on paper.

We used the assessment to make some adjustments for him in his learning plan {he was able to type some of his work out etc}.....Now his printing has caught up basically...still struggles a bit but he certainly became a more enthusiastic student once we knew what we were dealing with.

Anyhow....I think if the teacher feels she's not ready to move on,than rather as seeing that as a bad thing i would view it as a good thing. All it means is she needs a little more time. Better to hold her back than to advance her when she's not ready. In the long run she will probably benefit from the extra time.

Also...a silly question but when was she born?
I ask because my Son's teacher was telling me that she found in the lower grades especially that students who were born late year...often struggled a little as some of their early year born classmates were often almost a year older which meantthey were just that more ahead by virtue of age and stage.

Anyhow...good luck...I realize I just wrote you a novel here! Sorry for rambling on.

[tan]

Tough one.  I think the teachers won't hold you back a grade unless they feel you aren't ready to move on.  I know a lot of people that failed a grade and still ended up in university. 

I don't think punishment is the answer, but maybe forcing some extra learning work on her in the summer would help out.

then again, my kid is 1 1/2 and I got a lot of parenting to learn.

lol 1 1/2 ..enjoy it SMG....it does get tougher and more challenging...and now she is 9 i am still learning...

[tan]

I wouldn't punish her, I would just look for extra help..maybe something to look into for over the summer...

exactly OD the school is enrolling her in a summer program to help her reading....now to clarify...she can read remarkably well now compared to begining of the year....her difficult area is remember what she read to answer questions about the book....

[tan]

Ya I'm going to say I'm NOT big on the punishment thing here with school.

Reason being in your case that she was given extra help and tutoring and such...which suggests that she's not being lazy or whatever...she's just struggling a bit.

I think you're right on when you say that her Father's actions are causing her to feel stupid or something. And that's not fair and in fact I would argue it may make the situation worse.
She's 8 years old...it's not like she's in grade 10...out partying and stuff neglecting her schoolwork.

And as you said...her Father has not taken an interest in her education which maybe if he had,she might have progressed a little further.

Anyhow....I know with my boy who is 11 now...we noticed a lag in some areas at school in grade 2-3.....especially his printing.He struggled mightily with it. And it got to a point where he would get soo frustrated that he just started giving up. I knew he was a smart boy and so did his teachers. I had him assessed by an education specialist[done through the school}. In the end we discovered he had what's termed a visual output disorder.
They tested everything. It was very revealing. He was assessed in reading and literacy skills at a grade 12 level, and almost everything else at a grade 7-9 level. So basically he's a very intelligent child but he had trouble expressing it on paper.

We used the assessment to make some adjustments for him in his learning plan {he was able to type some of his work out etc}.....Now his printing has caught up basically...still struggles a bit but he certainly became a more enthusiastic student once we knew what we were dealing with.

Anyhow....I think if the teacher feels she's not ready to move on,than rather as seeing that as a bad thing i would view it as a good thing. All it means is she needs a little more time. Better to hold her back than to advance her when she's not ready. In the long run she will probably benefit from the extra time.

Also...a silly question but when was she born?
I ask because my Son's teacher was telling me that she found in the lower grades especially that students who were born late year...often struggled a little as some of their early year born classmates were often almost a year older which meantthey were just that more ahead by virtue of age and stage.

Anyhow...good luck...I realize I just wrote you a novel here! Sorry for rambling on.

the novel was great...i was questioning if i was reacting badly cause of PMS or being over protective....i just chose not to punish her for the fact that i am scared to discourage her more...she also had a bad teacher this year...this one is contrary and likes to yell alot and caitlin is such a sentimental kid...she spent half the year crying...i am sure we will see great progress next year

and as a bonus i enrolled myself in french upgrading so i can try to at least help her more i hafta admit there were times i would get frustrated myself cause i didnt understand what the directions of her homework meant to help her...i was to return to english school in september but chose french...i figured it would help both of us i am good and stable in english so time to refresh my french

thanks for the input guys....i was really cranky over this...lol

tan

[Saucy Bastard]

Schools suck , because every kid is unique , but they have to cater to the average . I didn't go to school until G 4 , and with a short adjustment , I was out on top. I wouldn't worry until the higher grades , everyone is ready at a different age. In reality , a kid could learn most of K-12 in a few years . School is mostly daycare , and a "valuable" tool for turning our children into good Robots. We don't want too many individuals , then who would want to do the menial 9-5 work that keeps the economy rolling? (I'm being a bit extreme , but you know what I mean) . I'm lucky , because mine all excel , but it would be heartbreaking to have them held back at a young age. IMHO , my older son  is in grade 3 too , and I wouldn't agree with your daughters teacher ( and her dad for that matter). My feeling is that when she's ready ,it will click for her, and she'll "get it". Lets hope that her school is big enough that she won't have to have the same teacher next year!!!

[Evangeline]

I would never think of punishment for my child failing grade three.    I thought they changed the laws now so that they don't fail kids anymore?  I would get my her extra help, maybe enroll her in Sylvain(sp?)  If they have that there.  It costs some money but it is well worth it and what child would not deserve it.  My nieces go there and they have pulled their grades up from D's to B's in just a year! 

She may just have difficulties learning and punishing her for something she can't control will just  cause her to have self esteem issues I think.

I don't have children so my opinion probably isn't too important though, lol 

[Saucy Bastard]

I don't have children so my opinion probably isn't too important though, lol 

Everyones opinion is important!
It takes a community to raise a child......

[walterx2]

Evangeline,

Children or not, I think that your advice is sound.

[letsgo2smokes]

Well in Alberta...during elementary Grades 1-8 you cant fail...The teacher can reccomend for your child to stay back a year but they cant force it.

[DavidB_Bubbles]

Heck no you shouldn't punish her.  There is nothing wrong with being held back a grade. Especially if it is not from a lack of trying.  Sounds like she is just struggling a bit but thats okay. Not everyone is the same.  In time she will catch up. I do think that your ex is only hurting the poor girl.  Being held back a year certainly does not make her stupid and she should not be made to feel that way. Or worse some kind of failure. Saucy, Evangeline, TC and others have given good sound advice.  Good Luck Tan I know you can pull her through.

Dave

[bigbenjamin]

No Tan, I do not believe your daughter should be punished for failing grade three. Summer school or tutoring might be helpful, though.

Coincidentally, I failed grade three after my parents moved from one place to another where the system was dramatically different. Being set back one year was "punishment" enough.

"Children are neither the property of their parents nor are they helpless objects of charity. They are human beings and are the subject of their own rights." - UNICEF, The Convention on the Rights of the Child. 

cheers

[Saucy Bastard]

Geeze , I wonder who the 4 are that voted for punishment?

[Julians_Wife]

Geeze , I wonder who the 4 are that voted for punishment?

4 people that don't have the guts to obviously stand behind their vote, otherwise they would have posted why they voted for punishment. No child deserves to be punished for stuff like this, they need encouragement, when you give a child encouragement it builds self confidence, therefore they succeed more.

[Shit machine gun]

I voted no for punishment, but back in the day, we always got a little something for passing.  That being said, I don't think they should be rewarded for failing a grade.  They've got to have a reason to try harder.  I think this gets more difficult when they reach the age of Tan's daughter, where they feel they are grown up even though they are still kids. 
So if they were expecting say, a new bike for grading, then perhaps they'd have to do summer school work and pass in order to get the bike.

[tan]

  my gawd thanks you guys for the posts i was really pissed at the news of punishment but yet was questioning if i should of punished her too for a while...

       yes i agree that if you state that your child will get a reward for passing and if she fails she won't get it...in caitlin's case she was gona get an electric scooter for grading from her dad and now she won't be getting it....she did try to get it from me...lol kids but i also turned her down on that...but punishing her from all summer events kinda seemed harsh to me
        he was at me last night again...he didn't want me to send her to the summer camp of 5 days i enrolled her in....but i stated that i never told her the summer camp was a reward...it was an oppertunity that she got way before we even knew she was gona be kept back and i refused to remove it from her

and yes here too we did get that no failin law till grade 8....the teacher and the school had several meeting with me on the issue and i was the one that chose to keep her back...my reasoning...if she is having a tough time already why would i send her to a grade that will even be harder before she is ready....i really think i did the right decision....it really hurt me that she is gona loose a year....but in the  long run i feel that its best for her cause if she is already struggling and getting discouraged how would she feel going up to a tougher grade when she is not ready

i had a llong talk with her last night....she only goes to her dad's every second weekend anyways so i reassured her that she will still have some fun this summer and that we will find ways to stregnthen her reading so next year she is gona pass with flying carpets 

tan

ps she is started to be more like herself now so i am worrying less 

[KarateCollie]

Well Tan, I do not agree with punishment for failing at this age. She is the parents responsibility, therefore her schoolwork should still be done with your supervision. If she has had tutoring and things like that, then you as a parent and her, have given it your best shot. I firmly believe that children should be held back to repeat the work again, because if you pass them on and they find the work too difficult, it damages their self esteem and does them no good. Here in N.S. they don't fail children in elementary and JR. High anymore, because they say it damages their self esteem and makes them feel down about themselves. I think it's completely the opposite. You push them ahead and set them up to be discouraged. I hate the way the school system caters to the average child and does very little for the below avg. or above avg. These children need to have curriculum designed for them as well, to challenge them and make their education successful, no matter what their level of comprehension is. I do not believe that all children are capable of the same thing. Many times a child who makes 70% is frowned upon for not doing better, when in fact that may be their best, given the time limit to do the test or just plain and simply, their best. Not everyone is the same, therefore a child who shows their maximum effort, should be commended and encouraged to keep up the good work, regardless if they make 100's or 70's. You're child should be made to understand that, ok, it wasn't the outcome that they wanted, but that's ok, we'll try it again and prove that they are capable of passing the grade. Perhaps there may be a learning disability of some sort, or a vision or hearing problem that could be interfering with your child's ability to learn more effectively. The child's father may be embarrassed about the situation, but that is not the way to approach it. By showing the child this much disappointment in them will not make them improve. Remember what we do to/for our children today, will have a direct impact on their future, tomorrow.

[shake]

[KarateCollie]

Sorry Tan, I just read the post you made before mine. You're a good mom and she will remember that!! Isn't parenting fun?!

[Julians_Wife]

I just wanted to add something to what KC was touching on, there have been numerous studies done to show that children learn in different ways and actually I'm sure some of us adults can attest to this too and frankly I don't understand why the education system does not implement them. It is a proven fact that some people learn best by reading, some learn best by being shown examples ( - you know gorilla see, gorilla do), some learn best by having music implemented into it and I think there was one or two more, but I can't remember what they are right now lol. I remember seeing that a couple of schools in the US were using these methods with some spectacular results, I think it was on 60 mins or 20/20 something like that (a long time ago lol) and it was rather interesting. They were getting into how these certain learning tactics actually stimulate the persons brain more, enabling them to absorb the information better and take more in.

Not every child learns the same, not every person really "gets" education until they find some particular thing that peeks their interest. I seriously didn't get alot of stuff until I hit grade 7 and up, where there were more topics that became of interest to me, like computers, business, marketing, law, politics, creative writing, public speaking other stuff i just got by on and probably because I had my 6 older siblings to get me through with thier knowledge.

[hashhockey69]

Being in school myself now, i have to say dont punish her, if she tried her best well thats the best you can ask, thats what my mom told me, if you dont do good, i wont get mad as long as you tried your best, last semester i passed maths with a 52!! But i really tried hard, and i did not get in shit, so all i am saying is if she tried hard she shouldent get punished. Good luck Tan.


HH69

[Ms Vee]

Tan I believe your are a good parent and you are going what is in the best interest for your daughter.And I also think that her Dad is going way over-board with the punishments. She is going to remember that for the rest of her life.

When my son was in grade 7, his teacher used to get after him about his behaviour in class.  He wasn't a bad kid, he just didn't focus in class and I guess he was always talking to his friends.Anyway, his teacher a Mr. Hutton, told him if he didn't shape up then he wouldn't be able to go to the grade 7 year end camp, which was two days at a ranch in Maple Ridge.  When it finally came time for the trip, the teacher said sorry but he couldn't go.  Well I thought that was wrong, so after talking it over with the principal and the teacher, we decided to let him attend on the last day, (missing out on alot of fun things). He is now 17 and still talks about how unfair the teacher was and he is still angry about the whole thing!  And another thing, the same teacher placed him in a special behavior-problem class in grade 8.  It was a small class with some tough kids in it.  When it came time for parent teacher meetings, the teacher told me that my son was way ahead of the others and shouldn't even be in that class.  Shortly after, we moved to another district and my son was put in a regular class.

[tan]

Tan I believe your are a good parent and you are going what is in the best interest for your daughter.And I also think that her Dad is going way over-board with the punishments. She is going to remember that for the rest of her life.

When my son was in grade 7, his teacher used to get after him about his behaviour in class.  He wasn't a bad kid, he just didn't focus in class and I guess he was always talking to his friends.Anyway, his teacher a Mr. Hutton, told him if he didn't shape up then he wouldn't be able to go to the grade 7 year end camp, which was two days at a ranch in Maple Ridge.  When it finally came time for the trip, the teacher said sorry but he couldn't go.  Well I thought that was wrong, so after talking it over with the principal and the teacher, we decided to let him attend on the last day, (missing out on alot of fun things). He is now 17 and still talks about how unfair the teacher was and he is still angry about the whole thing!  And another thing, the same teacher placed him in a special behavior-problem class in grade 8.  It was a small class with some tough kids in it.  When it came time for parent teacher meetings, the teacher told me that my son was way ahead of the others and shouldn't even be in that class.  Shortly after, we moved to another district and my son was put in a regular class.

well caitlin did get a bad teacher and i know i shouldn't blame it all on her...caitlin did stuggle but i beleive if she would of had a more positive and patient teacher the outcome might of been different...i found her to be really negative at a parent/teacher meetings...especially when she would go over the students work i could hear her telling the parents only what they couldn't do right or only mentioned their lowest mark.....when she got to us she did the same pointed out all the D's in french.....but i would but in and ask her why she wasn't making an effort to show me the B's she got in math
her reply was that we need to pay attention to what they aren't passing....
my reply to her was...wouldn't it be of benefit to also praise the good marks to encourage working on the lower marks and try to give reassurance they can....she snickered and moved on

lets just say i took caitlin and left i didn't have no interest on staying...and after i did so a few parents actually followed me...

so here's to hoping she has a good patient teacher next year...i am sure things will turn out great....but i also made sure she understands this teacher might not be the first she gets or the last that is cranky...lol

tan