Topic: London/UK Riots (Read 1200 times)

riverman · « **Reply #25 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 08:13 AM »

This is what happens when a country doesn't control it's immigration. They should Spay or neuter all of them, no since of letting them make more animals.

Tiggy Puddin · « **Reply #26 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 08:25 AM »

I assume you are joking, Riverman. It doesn't matter what colour you are or where you came from, it's the attitude that causes the problem.

This has a lot more to do with the way the UK has been headed over the past few generations (it's all Thatcher's fault, LOL). Kids are told to work hard, and when they do, there's no jobs. Kids misbehave, and find they can keep getting away with it. Everyone thinks they *need* new trainers and TVs, if they don't have them they are viewed as failures. And some people just enjoy kicking off.

riverman · « **Reply #27 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 09:22 AM »

Tiggy
I am not joking and color of skin has nothing to do with it at all. But Culture does and you can't change a persons culture. I know over the last 20 years we are all suppose to be friendly with everybody and ignore their culture they come from but that is not smart. Many cultures want the government to take care of them that was the way they were raised for hundreds of years so the do not have a work ethic or values that a Fine country like England considers acceptable.
I know this sounds racist to some but it is not. If you went to some of the Asian countries were having sex with a 10 year old is consider the norm you would see that not all cultures are good. A country should not allow people in that do not accept the culture that is there.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings but the truth is more important than feelings.

Tiggy Puddin · « **Reply #28 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 09:26 AM »

No offence taken, Riverman! I've travelled all over the world and if there's one thing I've learned is there are only two types of people on the planet - those who are dicks and those who are not. And this is entirely interchangable.

riverman · « **Reply #29 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 09:40 AM »

I agree

Sh1tAbyss · « **Reply #30 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 12:52 PM »

I know that immigration is a hugely touchy subject in the UK. There are Youtubers like Pat Condell and Richard Coughlan who offer keen insights into both sides of this debate from their Youtube channels. Check them out when you can. I understand that there are neighborhoods and enclaves not only in England but throughout Europe where Sharia law is protected practice, and to me that is simply unacceptable. Sharia law is a cruel, outmoded and barbaric conveyance for laws both civil and criminal. As a social model, it should not be tolerated AT ALL in Western society. Laws should NEVER be made in the name of a most-certainly-fictional God who's really just a smokescreen for institutionalized ignorance and misogyny.

I'm aware that disgruntlement and frustration with this state of affairs was one of the driving forces behind Anders Breivek's attacks in Oslo. But to put the cause of these riots all at the feet of immigration is a simplistic reaction. This is a case of class disenfranchisement and many people saw this coming several years ago. I would have actually admired these rioters had they set upon the House of Commons or the Tax Bureau or whatnot, but instead they made the mistake the LA rioters made twenty years ago and shit on their own doorstep. Now the cleanup is going to only add to the huge tax burden under which these people have been suffocating and their rights will only further be curtailed. Nice going, guys. A sympathetic B+ for the sentiment, a resounding F for execution.

Sh1tAbyss · « **Reply #31 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 01:02 PM »

Quote from: riverman on Aug 10, 2011, 04:27 PM

That can't happen in the Southern United States about 95% are armed and willing to use it. I could take out several hundred with what I have alone.
Sad when People act like animals.

One word gives the error to this one: KATRINA

xhippie · « **Reply #32 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 01:41 PM »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/

i have been reading this online paper about the riots ...some of the online comments afterv the articles are hilarious!

riverman · « **Reply #33 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 02:22 PM »

One word gives the error to this one: KATRINA

There is a big difference between looting and empty City than a riot in a populated City.
Looting a store to feed your family is not same as burning down a business in a poor area that is providing jobs to the people that need to work the most.

Marching against a Government is in no way the same as a riot against innocent people.
I don't excuse bad behavior to be keep from hurting someones feelings

Sh1tAbyss · « **Reply #34 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 04:51 PM »

I'm aware of the difference in circumstances between the two, but you appeared to be using the south as an example of how a different outcome could be achieved (correct me if I'm wrong here) with a heavy concentration of people exercising their Second Amendment rights to defend their property. The hypothesis is still faulty if you examine what happened in LA in 1992 - individual gun ownership didn't prevent a lot of destruction, mostly because the looters were better armed than the property owners. Therein lies the rub that makes a rightfully armed society such a double-edged sword - you could very well whip out your piece in defense of your property only to end up engaged in a deadly shootout with the bad guys because they have more firepower than you. Very few of these rioters in the UK were armed, because of that country's restrictive gun control laws, but look at what they managed to do anyway. Imagine how much worse it could have been with citizens shooting indiscriminately at one another in the midst of all this carnage.

Fishyneil · « **Reply #35 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 06:27 PM »

I'm absolutely discusted with this display of blatent disregard for the law.


Manchester Riots 2011: scenes from Whalley Range

I have to give credit to Tia for the link.

Fishy

English Bastard · « **Reply #36 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 06:53 PM »

I got caught with that one this morning I have a lot of relations in Edinburgh

cinthb · « **Reply #37 on:** Aug 11, 2011, 08:55 PM »

First Fishie,
I am appalled that you would paste that filth in this pristine forum, the ORG. Fer shame, fer shaaame!

Second,
The riots are most similar to the Detroit riots in 1967. Discrimination was the spark, but disenfranchised youth was the gas, while class, and race separation was pretty much ready to burn. I'm saying regardless of guns, or the lack there of, regardless of immigration, and religion. Detroit fell and never recovered, because the resources to help, and support communities was availed only to those who already had far more than those in the poor parts of the city. The have's nearly ignored the havenot's. Race, and economics became realities too uncomfortable to address. Ask any Detroiter who was there, and they will tell you, that those communities were often well aware it was coming, and still the city leaders just claimed it would be unfair, and unappreciated, to focus it's attention to any large degree on the poorest, and [least savory] segments of the population, insisting the contributing majority wouldn't have it's tax moneys spent more for the lowly, and less for themselves.

Then it exploded, and the fear of the streets long term unrest drove most of the upper, and middle class families out to suburbs, and rural areas. What was left was mostly only the poor, addicts, sickos, crazies, and middle, and lower middle-class black families. White folks didn't feel adequately safe in a place where black people were very numerous, and suburban areas didn't sell, or rent to very many non-christian, non-whites, and some old realtors won't publicly admit it to this day.
[legal posturing]
A city can not [only] support those with good work ethics, and socially comfortable backgrounds. And likewise Motown still can't support it's self after it lost around half of the tax paying, strong property value focused homeowner families. To this day, a live-in homeowner in the city is a very small exception to the renter, and squatter populations. Who cares as much about their community as someone who owns, and is invested in the neighborhood they reside in?
So the only thing I hope for Brits in those places, is that they don't move away, and they know of course, sometimes less is more, and self sacrifice may lead to triumph, or at least something resembling order.

Sh1tAbyss · « **Reply #38 on:** Aug 12, 2011, 06:41 AM »

Nailed it, cinthb. Beautiful.

riverman · « **Reply #39 on:** Aug 12, 2011, 08:17 AM »

That is foolishness. There will always be the Poor it is written in the Bible. I was born in the projects in Memphis I know what it is like to be poor. The main reason people stay poor is the culture that surrounds them. Getting hand outs from the government never inspired a person to want more for them self or their family.
A person who owns a home (the single largest investment they will ever make) would be foolish to stay in a neighborhood that on the decline for the benefit of anybody.
London has the same problem as most nations they have to many people living on government assistant that can't be supported by the few who work.

Let put it this way would you work 70 hours a week to pay for your neighbors house because he didn't want to work.

We will agree to disagree but I love the debate.

Sh1tAbyss · « **Reply #40 on:** Aug 12, 2011, 09:22 AM »

Well, if you're gonna go that route, I have to admit that I cast a dim view on anything "written in the Bible". The Bible posits that an ocean can be drawn in half with a staff, that a woman can to be turned into salt (why salt?) for the "mortal sin" of curiosity, that a man built a boat big enough to house a pair of each of over 500,000 species of animals along with his own family and that an omnipotent being can impregnate a virgin with his only son who is also himself so that that same son can die a hideous torture-death for the purpose of cleansing mankind of a collective innate sin with which we were endowed by this same creator in the first place. Can anybody reading this shit even wonder why Ricky would think this same cat could also be Santa Claus and make it around the world with a huge bag of presents for every Christian in one night? It isn't outside the realm of the track record with which the Bible credits him. I'd say Ricky's mistake makes more sense than most of what's written in the Bible.

Having grown up poor I would think you could take a larger view of what creates a permanent underclass, because it's not as simple as being something you can lay entirely at the feet of a welfare state. Government assistance, especially in America, is dogshit, and if you look at statistics you would actually see that roughly 70% of people living below the poverty line in America DO work - they just work at the shit jobs that pay them next to nothing. The Federal minimum wage here can't even support ONE person, let alone a family. Given the steaming pile of cuts-to-entitlement-programs-while-simultaneously-adding-still-more-tax-breaks-for-the-wealthy-and-beefing-up-corporate-welfare horseshit that just passed in the debt-ceiling debacle, it's a little disingenuous to keep pointing the finger at the poor and the drop in the bucket that comprises assistance programs when we've already thrown good money after bad at banks and corporations, billions and billions of dollars in the dim hope that it will "kick-start the economy". This long-standing notion that the poor are solely responsible for their own poverty is really starting to wear thin and can be completely debunked just by looking at what government money goes where.

1.1 TRILLION dollars of our revenues in the US comes from INDIVIDUAL INCOME TAXES.
2.57 Billion comes from Corporate tax revenue.
934 Billion is revenue from Social Security taxes, as opposed to 730 Billion that goes back into the same fund.
Employment initiatives - the stuff that's supposed to get us off of welfare and other programs of which you don't approve - amounts to 25 Billion.
Defense spending accounts for where 895 Billion of our tax money goes. Then there's the 520 Billion that goes to something that the government will only vaguely define as "other discretionary spending".
Medicaid and Medicare get a little shy of 800 billion combined.
Welfare gets around 11 Billion.

There are more numbers in both the in and out columns of the Federal budget, but these are the bulk of what we're discussing here. Looking at these numbers it's not difficult to figure out that a permanent welfare class accounts for a tiny percentage of the economic woes faced by the US.

I realize that all of this is a moot point when you're talking about Britain, where entitlements are slightly larger but comprise not a whole hell of a lot more, in terms of percentages, than what our poor receive in aid. In other European countries entitlement programs ARE a driving force in those countries' debts, but Britain falls a lot closer to the US on these kinds of spending percentages scales.

Which is why we should be taking a very measured look at every factor that got them where they are now, because if we don't quit cocking over the poor, Biblically mandated or not, we're next, pal.

riverman · « **Reply #41 on:** Aug 12, 2011, 11:38 AM »

I am sorry you are down of Faith. I am not much on organized religion but I still believe in god but I do not push my faith on others. This a big world and there in plenty of room for all of us. I respect your believe so please respect mine without throwing rocks.
Ok this is the last thing I have to say about poor. If you are born poor and you are raised in a poor culture then you won't ever be anything but poor.
If you first thought is to buy a case of beer when you get paid instead of buying gas for you car you will always behind the 8 ball.Telling a teenager that if she has a child at 15 that she will be poor most of her life may hurt her feelings but it is true. Not educating yourself will keep you poor. I have never been to College but I have a very good education.
I was born very poor but I am not poor anymore because of one thing I learned how not to be poor. I watched how people that had money acted and I copied them.
This would work for most people in the world but it is not taught in schools.I have spent most of my life trying to help other who don't know how to get ahead. I live in Mississippi the poorest State in the United States I own a business in a City that is over 60% black and my business is in a community that is 90% black. I understand what they are going through. It breaks my heart to see how little most people have but I also understand it is because they haven't been educated to do better not that the government is not doing enough to help them.

Love and Peace Sh1Abyss I will pray for you for my god loves everyone believer and non believer alike. I hope that doesn't offend you I do it to give myself peace not to hurt your feelings.
Allen
AKA riverman

Sh1tAbyss · « **Reply #42 on:** Aug 12, 2011, 12:14 PM »

Thanks bud, I have no quarrel whatsoever with devout people. When my house got flooded out at the beginning of the summer the first people to come through in the clutch with no expectation of financial or any other kind of tangible reward were very devout people. Religious people are good folks. I just disagree with the Bible and find the God of the Bible to be quite honestly despicable. For me it's gone from a matter of not believing in that God to actively hoping against his existence because he seems like a total dick with far too many of the worst of human whims and emotions.

As for the rioters, I'm just the kind of person who needs all factors of a problem in front of them before attempting to offer a solution. Is laziness no contributor whatsoever to poverty? Of course not. There are plenty of very lazy people on the dole with the priorities of children - beer, cigarettes and personal gratification first, providing for the family second and efforts to improve personal circumstances a very distant third. But that's just one reason they're reaching this explosive meltdown. As I noted in my incredibly long-winded deconstruction of the Federal budget, the very poor are actively getting screwed by the haves and their puppets in power. That makes any bootstraps efforts poor people might make to improve their lot in life that much harder to implement.

cinthb · « **Reply #43 on:** Aug 12, 2011, 08:39 PM »

I was also born poor, adopted, and raised in a trailer park [after the riots] at or near poverty line, schooled in a middle, and upper middle class community, socially brow beaten, and expected to work long, and hard like my mechanic dad. Today I am exactly there. I didn't get in college, nor did I have enough courage, and ambition to open my own business. Social psychology is a heavy ball and chain that I own. I got paid today, and did indeed buy beer. I have been on the street a couple of times, and yet never had any more than a couple months worth of foodstamps as assistance in 50+ yrs.
Social psychology is also like glue, and extremely hard to completely escape it with certainty, and totality. I toast you Riverman for lifting yourself up.
I don't know plenty, but I do know I am done with this sub-topic

Sh1tAbyss · « **Reply #44 on:** Aug 13, 2011, 07:44 AM »

Another part of Riverman's last post that I didn't touch on but that keeps haunting me is this: "I was born very poor but I am not poor anymore because of one thing I learned how not to be poor. I watched how people that had money acted and I copied them.
This would work for most people in the world but it is not taught in schools."

This touches on a big problem for, I think, every Western capitalist or quasi-capitalist civilization: There simply isn't enough real-world, post-secondary education available for people with no money who don't do well enough in school to qualify for academic aid, and a lot of post-secondary education doesn't sufficiently address the fluidity and constant change in the economy and properly teach kids how to roll with the punches.

Here in the state of Vermont there are mandatory programs for people on assistance who have no trade skills, where you can pick a trade and learn it and the state will place you in a job in that trade in exchange for welfare. The problem with this program is that there is a finite number of jobs and too many people who need them. With state programs placing the most disadvantaged in jobs that the state has trained them to do, a lot of people who learned skilled trades in a more traditional manner and don't have the backing of the state are being left out in the cold at hiring time. So this burdens welfare recipients with even further stigma - in our push to get people off assistance we're taking jobs away from those who learned their trade without the help of a workfare program, creating still more resentment towards the poorest and most disadvantaged while denying the jobs to people who would probably be better at them and deserve them more.

Since the US - and more and more, Canada as well - are so gung-ho on decreasing entitlements and sending people out into the "free market" to sink or swim, maybe corporations and other private interests would do well to take over some of these training programs and reduce the burden on the state. As private entities they wouldn't be obligated to train EVERYONE as the state is - they could choose who they wanted to train for positions in their company. Lord knows that they've been given enough Federal money to be able to afford something like this. Maybe instead of CEO bonuses and a Tag Heuer watch for every motherfucker in the boardroom, they could sprinkle a little of that money into the bottom layer and try to keep more of these skilled trade jobs at home.

Sorry about the long-ass posts, guys. My shrink has been trying out Klonopin to decrease the anxiety factor of my ADHD and it makes me ramble sometimes. It's also given rise to some weird dreams...last night I dreamed I was gettin' busy with Julian but just when we got to the fun part he turned into Lightning Stick O Leigh...

shake · « **Reply #45 on:** Aug 13, 2011, 09:05 AM »

That's cool Sh1t, ramble on!

hashdriveway · « **Reply #46 on:** Aug 13, 2011, 01:36 PM »


Led Zeppelin - Ramble On (Studio Version - Best Quality)

Sh1tAbyss · « **Reply #47 on:** Aug 13, 2011, 02:05 PM »

Now's the time, the time is now!

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Author Topic: London/UK Riots (Read 1200 times)